Nora Ephron and Us
A conversation with fellow Ephron historians on the Hollywood legend's best movies and one-liners — and how Olivia Wilde might reimagine "Heartburn"
The community of authors who write about Nora Ephron is a small one.
When I’ll Have What She’s Having arrived in 2017, it was pretty much just me and my book about the making of Nora’s romantic comedies, Richard Cohen and his heartfelt memoir about their friendship, and Australian academic Liz Dance and her persuasive defense of the late filmmaker as an auteur, a distinction usually given to men whose artistic vision permeates every aspect of a film.
I wrote my Nora book over the course of two, espresso-fueled years, totally consumed with the pressure to recapture an overlooked slice of Hollywood history and this formidable, flawed woman who people revered. Nora belongs to the universe; the more quality literature about her, the better. I devoured Kristin Marguerite Doidge’s surprising and incisive biography of the writer-director, which came out in 2022 and offers abundant treasures. Kristin developed key sources including the humorist Dan Greenburg, who was married to Nora during the ’60s and ’70s. He gave Kristin permission to share intimate, gasp-inducing photos of their 1967 wedding at the Rainbow Room — the site where Nora later filmed Annie and Walter’s breakup scene in Sleepless in Seattle.
This October, at the height of Meg Ryan Fall, the journalist Ilana Kaplan will release Nora Ephron at the Movies, the very first illustrated monograph on the force of nature who revolutionized the rom-com and also ventured beyond the genre to direct Julie & Julia, Michael and This Is My Life, among other screen gems.
On Sunday, May 19, Nora would have turned 83 years old. (She died in 2012 following a battle with leukemia.) I got together with Ilana and Kristin to celebrate her birthday and discuss our Nora books and our take on her body of work and finest one-liners. Our conversation has been edited and condensed.
Welcome, kindred spirits. We are gathered here today, at this virtual roundtable dedicated to the icon who has stolen untold hours of our lives! But we love her anyway. Tell me: What are the origin stories of your books?
Ilana: I was asked to write this book, but my favorite beat has always been covering [romantic comedies], whether that's doing oral histories of them or just interviewing rom-com heroines or directors behind them — it's what brings me the most joy. I would say it was kind of like an accidental thing that happened. I always loved Nora rom-coms, and I always felt like I was kind of a bit of an outlier in the Nora Ephron fandom because I've never been a huge Sleepless in Seattle fan, but I am such a huge You’ve Got Mail fan, even though it's a commentary on late-stage capitalism, and obviously you're getting a very Republican Tom Hanks. I really love Kathleen. I just love the dialogue and the love story.
Kristin: When Harry Met Sally came out in 1989 — I was five years old. I remember being told “You can't watch it. It's too scandalous.” I didn't know why. I didn't know what obviously was happening, but I loved When Harry Met Sally. I did not necessarily know Nora as [the director of] Sleepless in Seattle, You’ve Got Mail, that kind of thing. I came to her as the subject of my thesis when I was in journalism school, and I had come across a quote of hers from her Wellesley [commencement] speech that stuck with me, which was the one about “You can always change your mind. I know, I've had four careers and three husbands.” I just loved that because I've never heard anyone say anything like that before. And I was like, “Who is this person?”
Do you have a favorite Nora story from your research?
Kristin: I do. It’s so hilarious. Basically, the story is from [her longtime film producer] Don Lee. Nora was at Rao’s, and there's only 10 tables there, and they're there one night, and there's a guy who looks like one of [the restaurant’s tough-guy regulars]. He lights up a cigar and Nora turns around and went like this: “Oh, stinky.” And he goes, “Oh, I'll put it right out. Sorry Nora.” And Don just loved this story. He is like, “Who does that? Who says that to one of the guys?” And I just think it speaks to the fact that she's kind of a badass. She wasn't afraid to say anything to anyone.
Of the eight films she directed, do you have a favorite?
Ilana: For me, it's a tie between You’ve Got Mail and Heartburn. I love Heartburn, and I feel like it's one of those movies that if you know Nora, you know that movie — but it's left out of the rom-com conversation because it's not exactly a rom-com. Yet I categorize it as one. To some degree, it's a breakup rom-com. … It's just such a really beautiful movie about making that brave choice to leave a relationship that is not working. And I think, obviously, the fact that it's a fictionalized version of her life just made it even juicier to me. I thought it was really amazing she wrote that novel to begin with.
My [second] favorite, though, is definitely a tie between When Harry Met Sally and Julie & Julia.
We don’t talk about Julie & Julia enough! I have such a fondness for it. Nora’s direction of Meryl and Tucci and the melting pat of butter — so unexpectedly sexy. I feel like she found something in that film that if she had lived longer, she would have made more of.
Kristin: That is my favorite Nora film. [She] was really in her element as far as getting to be in New York, writing about a writer, and then being in Paris and writing about someone who cooks. That’s just the essence of Nora.
No one else could have made that movie. You were talking, Ilana, about Heartburn being a breakup movie. I think it was [producer] Amy Pascal or the screenwriter of The Post [who said], “[The Post] is the kind of movie Nora would've made if she were here.” And [also], “It's a coming-of-age story, but why do we always have to be 17 when we're coming of age?” That it's about Katharine Graham coming into her own. So, there's something about that, right? Julia Child's 50, but she's also like, “I'm still becoming me.” I love that. That just really resonates with me.
Nora too switched gears in middle age — she turned 50 while making her directorial debut with This Is My My Life. I totally agree, she’d be all over The Post, especially with a cast including her faves: Meryl and Tom Hanks. Now I’ll switch gears: If she were alive today, how do you think she’d react to us writing books about her?
Kristin: What is your answer, Erin? I’m so curious.
Oh, I think she would not be happy because she was famously controlling and had to own her narrative, but I do think that she would secretly love being written about. She was sardonic with a hidden marshmallow center. And that romance of her movies seeped into her writing, as we saw in her later essays. Her list “What I Will Miss” speaks to that aspect of her persona, which she gradually accepted. But maybe she would publicly disavow us, I don’t know.
Ilana: I think she would definitely publicly disavow, without a doubt. That scene [in Julie & Julia], when after all that, Julia Child still refuses to meet Julie Powell. That's how it would be. She would never want to talk to us, but then maybe she would have a copy in her home.
I can so see her doing that. Nora was not as friendly as the characters within her coziest films — nor was she a Luddite like, say, Frank Navasky. She embraced new technologies. She blogged for the Huffington Post, which fills me with delight. Where would she post her hot takes today? Threads?
Ilana: I feel like she would be doing her own thing. So, she would be on Threads or on Facebook still — she would just post all the time on Facebook.
Ilana, in your book you analyze Nora’s posthumous impact on social media, where her memory remains very much alive, via numerous fan accounts and references to her writing and cinematic universe. You brilliantly include the viral moment when Olivia Wilde posted the Heartburn vinaigrette recipe in her Instagram Stories amid her breakup drama with Jason Sudeikis.
Ilana: I kind of love Olivia in general. She's so messy to me, but I just can't help but root for her. And I don't know why.
SAME. And I bet Nora would be out there rooting for her too. Wait, should they remake Heartburn with Olivia in the Nora role?
Ilana: That would be savage. I would die. I bet it would be like Heartburn, but it would be with a twist. So, there would be some kind of crazy hijinks and it wouldn't be as depressing to some degree. I feel like it would have a different air about it with her being a divorcee.
Olivia, if you’re out there, I hope you’re paying attention! Anyway: I can see her doing a new soundtrack for it — not the Carly Simon songs in the original.
Ilana: I love Carly Simon. I feel like she would get Phoebe Bridgers or boygenius to do it.
Who would play the Jack Nicholson role?
Kristin: I can’t decide.
Not Sudeikis.
Ilana: Oh my god, I love casting fake things.
Kristin: We could have Jack Nicholson's son playing the husband. He looks exactly like him. Oh, yes. Could be interesting. Just throwing it out there.
Ilana: That would be a fun homage. He's definitely too young. Or he could be like the Harry Styles [of Wilde’s remake]. [Editor’s note: The Don’t Worry Darling director dated Styles after splitting from Sudeikis].
Kristin: Exactly. The twist is that she gets with the Harry Styles guy.
That’s very The Idea of You and I strongly support the idea of Olivia making a new Heartburn, even if her one-liners are not as quotable as Nora’s. Which brings me to my final question: Do you have a favorite archival Ephron one-liner?
Ilana: Mine is, “In my sex fantasy, nobody ever loves me for my mind.”
Kristin: That's a good one. That one also resonated with me early on. I always felt very tomboyish. And I think Nora was obviously very tomboyish, and I felt like, “Where do you find people who like you for just being smart and funny?”
I love the Parker Posey lines [in You’ve Got Mail], where she comes over and [says], “I use a wonderful over-the-counter drug, Ultradorm. Don't take the whole thing, just half, and you will wake up without even the tiniest hangover.” I could just picture Nora and Delia [her sister and co-screenwriter] cracking themselves up over that line.
On that note, I’ll tell you mine: “Patricia makes coffee nervous.” That speaks directly to my Type-A caffeinated brain.
Thank YOUR, Ilana and Kristin for joining this roundtable. Friends, you can buy the authors’ excellent books here and here. Meanwhile, I have partnered with Shawnee Mead of The Podcast Around the Corner, a must-listen show devoted to the Ephron filmography, to give away an annotated copy of I’ll Have What She’s Having. (More details at the link.)
I hope you have a nice Memorial Day Weekend!
Yours in slams laptop shut til Tuesday,
Erin
Really enjoyed this confab of Nora experts! And now I'm kind of all in on the idea of a Heartburn remake, complete with boygenius soundtrack 😀
Finally had the chance to sit and read this - can feel the fun the three of you had through the words. Loved it - and loved the pic at the end!