Freaks, Gleeks, and Dawson's Creek
Revisiting teen TV classics with author Thea Glassman.
Welcome back to You’ve Got Mail: The Substack, and allow me to introduce my friend Thea Glassman, whose new book, Freaks, Gleeks, and Dawson’s Creek: How 7 Teen Shows Transformed Television, hits shelves today, wherever books are sold. I love every word she wrote, every juicy detail, absolutely everything about this deeply reported and deeply felt valentine to The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, My So-Called Life, Dawson’s Creek, Freaks and Geeks, The O.C., Friday Night Lights and Glee. If you’re a fan of the aforementioned, I know you’ll feel the same. To celebrate her book’s release, I asked Thea to speak with me for a Q&A — cue the Paula Cole (“I Don’t Want to Wait”) or Phantom Planet (“California”) and enjoy this trip down memory lane. Our conversation has been edited and condensed.
What sparked the idea for this book?
A couple of years ago I wrote a feature story for Vanity Fair for the 20-year anniversary of Dawson's Creek. I interviewed tons of tons of the writers. I had always thought writers' rooms were fascinating, but what I didn't realize was quite how fascinating teen writers’ rooms were. First of all, these all-star writers got their start on Dawson's Creek, like Jenny Bicks, who wrote on Sex in the City, worked on Dawson's Creek. Tom Kapinos, who created Californication, got a start in Dawson's Creek. Greg Berlanti [Riverdale, You, Everwood] got his start on Dawson's Creek. And talking to them and hearing about how writing teen television really shaped them as writers and learning about their own growing pains as writers and developing these love triangles that we were all so obsessed with — it was such a delight to hear their stories. I started out with a book thinking that I would just try and interview TV writers, and then that kind of expanded. [I selected] seven TV shows that I felt were really culturally significant and [went on] a deep dive behind the scenes to find out how, as I have been saying, these hormone-soaked worlds were created.
How did you narrow your list to seven?
I did admittedly, from a selfish place, start with the shows that I loved. I started doing a lot of research and I looked into which of these shows made daring choices and did things that were really culturally groundbreaking. Start with My So-Called Life — we had the first teen to come out on television. We had the first passionate kiss between two men on Dawson’s Creek. So, I was looking for those landmark moments. And then I [chose] shows that, cinematically, did very interesting things. I looked at Friday Night Lights. I was watching [that show] during the pandemic and it kind of like saved me.
“Clear eyes, full hearts, can’t lose.” Friday Night Lights was so well-cast. Taylor Kitsch (Tim Riggins) was, um, an especially great find. And Jesse Plemons who played Landry is now a fancy actor married to KIRSTEN DUNST.
I think Landry helped us redefine the teen heartthrob. I thought he was the heartthrob of Friday Night Lights. And I feel like it took us so long to get to a place where the Brian Krakows kind of had their moment in the spotlight, and I feel like Landry maybe runs within the DNA of a Brian Krakow [played by Devon Gummersall in My So-Called Life]. [Riggins] reminds me a little bit of a Jordan Catalano [played by Jared Leto in My So-Called Life], who is very dreamy in his own right. But, like, can you have a conversation with him? I'm not totally sure. It was funny rewatching the shows because I feel like the [guy characters] who I gravitated toward as a teen, I sort of no longer found as appealing — except for Pacey [Joshua Jackson in Dawson’s Creek] because, you know, Pacey is forever.
What teen show imprinted on you the most as a young person?
I would say Dawson's was really the formative one for me. I was intense. Like, I got weird. I would get home from school and research every place where they filmed in Wilmington, North Carolina. And I would make this long list of [locations] where someday I would go visit the place where Joey [Katie Holmes] and Pacey had their first kiss. Adolescence is so uncomfortable and awkward and the people who you have crushes on don't have crushes on you and you don't know how to express yourself. [The fictional town of Capeside, Massachusetts was a] beautiful, cozy world where romance was so electric. I think it was like the best form of wish fulfillment for me.
You were not alone in your fandom! Um, recently when I was going through old stuff in storage, I found a sketchpad from high school in which I had drawn a particularly emo portrait of Joshua Jackson, probably from a picture in Entertainment Weekly or something. In your book, you report that Jackson and Holmes dated in real life — a surprising, natural chemistry that eventually affected the outcome of the series finale.
My little bit of scoop was finding out from two people who worked on set that it was Katie Holmes who pushed for Joey to end up with Pacey. It was originally gonna be Dawson [James Van Der Beek]. And she was like, That's not who I think Joey should end up with.
There’s this [early] scene where Pacey and Joey are in a car together and nothing had ever happened between them. She kind of has to change [clothes] outside of the car, and he watches her a little bit. When they were done filming the scene, the director said, The three of us were just so quiet on the way home. Because we knew something really special had just happened.
When The O.C. premiered in 2003, I was obsessed. My parents were also deeply invested in the saga of Ryan Atwood — an irony of a great teen show is that it's not just for kids.
I think you could put anybody of any age in front of Friday Night Lights and they're gonna enjoy it, or at the very least, they're gonna appreciate it. My So-Called Life started this — of having parent characters who were three-dimensional and had their own interesting foibles and difficulties. And I wonder if we grow up a little bit and then we start to identify — I'm not there quite yet — with the parents. I know that [O.C. writer-producer] Stephanie Savage loved My So-Called Life and she wanted to kind of give the parents that same three-dimensional quality.
I remember thinking that Peter Gallagher as Sandy Cohen was a Cool Dad. His geeky son, Seth, was also extremely cool in his own way. There was an episode where Seth was shown reading Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs, and I thought, I could hang with this person in real life. You report, in delicious detail, that Adam Brody initially wanted to play Ryan, the kid from the wrong side of the tracks, rather than what became the defining character of his career.
Adam had just come off playing Dave Rygalski, Lane's love interest on Gilmore Girls. He was big on improv and putting his own spin on the line. So, when he got in front of [O.C. writer-producer] Josh Schwartz, he was not reading the script as was. And my impression was it looked like he was unprepared because of that. Patrick Rush, who cast the show, was very invested in Adam. When Adam left [his audition], Josh Schwartz was so turned off. Patrick Rush kind of like begged for a second try. He called Adam's agent and said, He has to stick to the script. He can come back, but he has to do it right this time. So he did. And Josh really liked him. The sort of funny twist of that is Adam ended up being a pretty big improv guy on set — and it ended up being a very beloved quality. He put his own spin on the lines and that ended up being a plus, not a minus for him.
My take reading your book was that maybe Schwartz was like, He’s way too similar to me. There can’t be two of me on set!
Penn Badgley interviewed Adam Brody recently [on his podcast, Podcrushed]. And they were both like, Oh god, we're both avatars of Josh Schwartz. Like, the world's gonna explode that we're like both in the same room ‘cause we're both just like Josh.
Indeed! Schwartz went on to create Gossip Girl, which featured Badgley as the smart, sensitive outsider who gradually joins the in-crowd of rich, prep-school kids. The Schwartz-ian Television Universe truly capitalized on our obsession with the young and the affluent.
The O.C. gave birth to The Real Housewives. It really gave birth to our obsession. I don't want to give The O.C. credit for the Kardashians, but The O.C. gave birth to Laguna Beach, which gave birth to The Hills and then The Real Housewives of Orange County. I like to give The O.C. credit for giving us The Real Housewives, which is kind of crazy to think about.
You're spot-on, though. On the opposite end of the spectrum, you had a gem like Freaks and Geeks, which was produced by Judd Apatow and featured naturalistic, non-glamorous public school students — some of the actors who played them became huge stars.
Allison Jones cast Freaks and Geeks and also cast The Office. She was looking for [actors] who felt like real-life people without any artifice. Freaks and Geeks celebrated a little bit of the mundane and a little bit of the no-movie-star. … I think [that show and later, The Office] were really big about these small, meaningful moments that didn't have to have these big cinematic [scenes].
Like Crying Dawson.
Freaks and Geeks was sort of made as a response to Dawson's Creek. Like, This is not this. We're not gonna have any pretty speeches. It’s gonna be awkward and we're gonna embrace that awkwardness.
Of the seven shows, which was your favorite to dig into, research-wise?
I found Glee super-interesting because [of] the musical element. It was so different from all the other shows. There was one writer who started out as a junior writer, and he was only allowed to write stage directions for the songs. He was kind of bummed out about that, but then he really embraced it and he was like, “I'm gonna decide who says this lyric and how they turn to this person.”
It’s essential work! Also, props to him because the prospect of working for Ryan Murphy frightens me. While the showrunner pulled the strings on Glee, my favorite on your list — The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air — revolved around the star power of Will Smith. Your Fresh Prince chapter is wonderfully moving, by the way.
[Smith] would rewatch tapes of himself after [filming episodes], like an athlete studying his plays. He was such a student. He was so determined to be a good actor, and as time went on, he so badly seemed to want to do more meatier material than a sitcom would allow him — and he really talked to the writers about that. I think he sort of used [Fresh Prince] as his own bootcamp to get the kind of acting experience that he wanted and needed. My impression was that he thought he could get that by doing movies — these big, kind of serious movies. But then, he really got it on the set of Fresh Prince and that incredible scene with him and James Avery [who played Uncle Phil]. That’s when James Avery was like, That's acting.
It's when [Will’s] dad comes back into his life and says he's gonna take him away for the summer. And he's so excited. And James Avery is kind of trying to temper his excitement, and Will lashes out at him. And then his dad leaves without him. Betrays him. And James Avery’s kind of left to pick up the pieces, and Will Smith crumples into his arms. And he's crying. There’s this quote where he says [of Avery], “He wouldn't give me an inch that day.” He wouldn't let him give anything but this really stellar performance. And I think James Avery was also a huge influence on Will Smith.
Final question: Where would you rather live — Capeside or Orange County?
Capeside, in a heartbeat. My friend once kindly drove us like eight hours to get to Wilmington and we went and ate at Pacey's restaurant and then probably severely trespassed to get to Dawson's house. It was the best 24 hours ever. Dawson's house is wild. It has not changed, down to the little patio area. It has not changed at all. That dock where Joey would just [park] her boat … it’s untouched by time.
This book sounds fantastic! And such a fun interview. I loved Dawson's Creek, and still do. And Freaks and Geeks was amazing. It will be cool to read more about them and how their influence has rippled through time. :)